Let's continue our debate here

[Jelena]

Originally Posted by krakup

a very noble idea Jelena. to understand the other side of the coin. i will go one more than understanding and say absolute acceptance, acknowledgment of the other sides absolute right to exist

I absolutely agree. And more over, this thread is helping me understand my point of view, too - why I believe what I believe, whether my arguments are valid, whether my logic makes sense.

Originally Posted by ortrules

I also couldn't even count the amount of times I've heard "God has a plan". It always seemed like a nice idea to me, and I wish I could believe it, because how nice is it knowing that God is always looking out for you and watching over you?

I always used to think that there is some force guiding us all, that there is higher purpose to life, I think I always believed in fate. But I also always believed that a human being is the creator of fate, not God. I can't explain it, it's just a feeling - and it is faith in a sense, except that it's my own religion.

Originally Posted by chester

Yes. I think 'religious' experience itself, should be the comfort that people seek, if death is something they fear. As in acheiving some kind of consciousness transendence. I think that this would be a completely subjective experience, not likely to be able to be put down in words, even if in the form of fables.

Death is how life progresses. How we all got to be here.

Hm, interesting statement chester. I was thinking recently about when exactly I decided I wanted to have children, and realized that I wanted to procreate as soon as I finally grasped the concept that I am mortal (after having a friend die of cancer a few years ago). My friend (a living friend, LoL) says that this is how things work, otherwise, without wanting to extend yourself to your children, perhaps there would be no world today.

Anyway, generally speaking, I am not opposed to religion, but to things that church teaches. Other than having a huge, HUMONGOUS problem with authority, it is very difficult for me to grasp the hypocrisy of church: they do tell you to love, but they are not accepting everyone - they condemn people of other faith and non-believers. This was reason enough for me to stay away, as the Church certainly wouldn't accept party-loving, bisexual, free spirited girl.

I am going to tell you something extremely personal about me now which will hopefully make all of you understand where my stance towards the church is coming from.

As I've already said, I have always had the capacity to believe, I just never did believe in Christian, or any other God for that matter. I first started considering Christianity seriously when my husband told me that he would like to get married in a church - not that he's a devout believer, he just liked the tradition. He was already baptized as a child, but I wasn't. So I went through this whole process, talking to a wonderful priest, reading books, etc, etc, and decided that if I was going to be baptized, I wouldn't be some half-assed believer, but I would embrace religion for all it's worth.

I still am glad that we got married in church cause it kinda makes it more meaningful than just signing a contract at City Hall.

Anyway, even after I got baptized, I still wondered whether I made the right decision. It took me a while, also, to realize that I had started feeling strangely guilty for every mistake I ever made, for every hurt I ever caused, for every "bad" thought I was having. I still, however, wouldn't give up my attempt to find a path through religion, even though I could feel what it was doing to me. There were even times when I felt like my sins of the past were so heavy that, from the perspective of Christianity, I didn't deserve to live. I know, I know, silly.

So, when a year and a half ago I had my first miscarriage, a part of me felt that I deserved it, that I wasn't good enough. I used this experience, however, to emerge stronger, oddly feeling elated, thankful that the miscarriage wasn't really as bad, even though I did spend three days in a hospital. I felt saved (kinda like baxter was talking about). And this is about time when, for the first time in my life, I thought that perhaps there is a God. I was proudly wearing a cross around my neck. I started thinking that perhaps through God, through Christianity, I would be able to become a person I wanted to be. In the months and years prior to that, I have had numerous conflicts with friends who were really close to me, always emerging feeling like a guilty party. Last year, however, I decided I would change that, that I would find myself through religion. So I did what was expected of a believer, fasted and went to church.

I don't know about Catholic religion, but Orthodox religion (the ruling religion in Serbia) mandates that believers should go to church every Sunday, and should fast when fast is in order - meaning, not eat dairy or animal products (except for fish, and on certain days not even fish or any kind of oil) on Wednesdays and Fridays, 6 weeks before Christmas, 7 weeks before Easter, and a for a few more weeks in between.

I dared not hope that things would be different with my second pregnancy, so the second miscarriage didn't really surprise me, even though it was devastating.

I never thought that miscarriages were my punishment, because then it would mean that they were a punishment for my husband too, who I thought (think) is the most wonderful, kindhearted person in the world. I just thought that I wasn't good enough, that there was something wrong with me.

So eventually, I ended up feeling nothing but guilt and disgust with myself, using all the bad experiences as a proof that I was a horrible, despicable person.

I understand that this is not entirely Christianity's fault, but it is true that this religion operates on the premise of guilt, and for an individual such as myself, who was depressed, and had a low self esteem, this surely had devastating consequences.
It wasn't until I decided to reject Christianity, and seek some therapy that I became well.

Oh, and joining this forum certainly helped boost my confidence.

Anyway, I am not saying that religion is bad, I'm just pointing out dangers of Christianity, and why it's not (healthy) for me. I had a difficult time concentrating on anything else but the fact that we are all sinners, that my mere existence is a sin, that I should humble myself in front of a higher (invisible) power. I felt as nauseated then as I do now writing this.

P.S. I could go on in this issue even further, but I think I wrote enough for one post.

Originally Posted by Foro777

Hmmmm... I could say that thanks to faith I no longer fear death. Well... faith and Gandalf in the Lord of the Rings "Death is just another path. One that we all must take"
And let's not forget LOTR was written by a devout Christian who despite going through the horrors of the First World War held on to his beliefs.

Funny you should say that. I loved the way Gandalf described death.

[LissaMarie]

So brave, Jelena. Thank you for your candor and for the trust it took to share it. I admire you in so many ways and for so many reasons.

[Jelena]

Originally Posted by LissaMarie

So brave, Jelena. Thank you for your candor and for the trust it took to share it. I admire you in so many ways and for so many reasons.

I admit that, while writing this, I did ask myself once or twice whether I realize that basically I'm putting myself out there, perhaps changing the image some people have of me, but my candidness always gets the best of me.

[ortrules]

Originally Posted by losttime

What the bible says of things and how they are interpretted by the churches arent necessarily the same.

So this is where I disagree. The validity of what the bible says and how it is misrepresented and used is the problem.

I think this is what has turned people against the notion of religion and God. The hypocrisy I saw with the Christian faith growing up is certainly my reason for developing a dislike for religion in general.

Even when I was a young child I didn't understand why we went to church every week. I never understood what the point of gathering and spouting out the same prayers (which I'm not even sure people understand the meaning behind) was. If God exists, I hardly doubt he would approve of us wasting time with the same empty prayers week after week instead of truly devoting ourselves to him and having something more meaningful to pray for.

And when I went to our weekly "religious education" classes for children, I was always asking questions that no one ever seemed to be able to answer. Like, why does the bible say both "and eye for an eye" and "do unto others as you would have done unto you"? Or why is it that you can sin for your entire life and then spend 5 minutes asking for forgiveness and still be ok? Can Hitler enter heaven because he was Christian but Ghandi can't because he wasn't?

These were literally things that I questioned as a kid. I could never get a good enough answer, so religion never stuck for me. And as I continued to grow up I pretty much went through the process because my parents expected me to, but I never really believed, or understood, and for me the belief in God was more important than belief in any religion. Religion was just dumb and didn't make sense to me, particularly as I learned history. Why is Christianity and God anymore valid than what the ancient Greeks believed? And why is it that a guy like Martin Luther can deviate from standard religious practice and start his own branch of religion? Does it really work like that, can I just start my own religion and tell everyone that only my religion will get into heaven? Is that how all religion really started? I could get into my thoughts about Jesus, but I think I'll hold off for now.

Today, I'm definitely agnostic. God is simply an unknown to me. He could exist. He could not.